Headhunter
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Post by Headhunter on Apr 18, 2017 17:08:44 GMT -5
You should let baseball scouting and personnel departments know this, because their metrics weigh hitting in significantly higher regard than fielding. You don't need to assume I don't know what I'm talking about every time I disagree with you. We value fielding differently. Clearly. It's not an issue of what I don't understand. Because so many of these up and coming athletes have already established what they can do on defense. But these same people have never stared at a four-seam fast ball from Clayton Kershaw, or an 86 mph slider from Adam Ottavino. Just because they scout a bit heavier for hitters doesn't mean it's significantly more important than defense. It's pretty simple, really. A guy can go 0-for-4 at the plate, but because of his stellar play at SS, the 3 runs he saved all game ended up being the difference maker. Defense is equally important. Thing is, you're actively disagreeing with every MLB franchise here because in every way, teams show they value hitting far more. In their metrics, in their scouting, contracts etc. As someone who's not some baseball genius, I will trust the judgment of every billion dollar baseball operation in the country and all the resources at their disposal over your ability to watch and understand the games.
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Apr 18, 2017 17:25:48 GMT -5
Because so many of these up and coming athletes have already established what they can do on defense. But these same people have never stared at a four-seam fast ball from Clayton Kershaw, or an 86 mph slider from Adam Ottavino. Just because they scout a bit heavier for hitters doesn't mean it's significantly more important than defense. It's pretty simple, really. A guy can go 0-for-4 at the plate, but because of his stellar play at SS, the 3 runs he saved all game ended up being the difference maker. Defense is equally important. Thing is, you're actively disagreeing with every MLB franchise here because in every way, teams show they value hitting far more. In their metrics, in their scouting, contracts etc. As someone who's not some baseball genius, I will trust the judgment of every billion dollar baseball operation in the country and all the resources at their disposal over your ability to watch and understand the games. It's also a fact that the average baseball fan is more drawn to the hitting aspect of the sport. Having a good batting lineup will put people in seats, resulting in more money. Take the Cardinals, for example. They have a good batting rotation, and have made the playoffs 6 years in a row, including two World Series appearances and a title. They missed the playoffs for the first time in 6 straight seasons last year, because they were overall bad on defense. This is the sole reason why Dexter Fowler went from the Chicago Cubs to the St. Louis Cardinals. He's got a good bat, and probably a top 5 center fielder. St. Louis is starving for a good defense and they're trying to capitalize on it, because their bats couldn't get them to the playoffs. The Cardinals paid him for his stellar play at center field. That's fine. Just understand that their judgment might not be exactly what you think it is.
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Headhunter
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Post by Headhunter on Apr 18, 2017 17:31:19 GMT -5
Thing is, you're actively disagreeing with every MLB franchise here because in every way, teams show they value hitting far more. In their metrics, in their scouting, contracts etc. As someone who's not some baseball genius, I will trust the judgment of every billion dollar baseball operation in the country and all the resources at their disposal over your ability to watch and understand the games. It's also a fact that the average baseball fan is more drawn to the hitting aspect of the sport. Having a good batting lineup will put people in seats, resulting in more money. Take the Cardinals, for example. They have a good batting rotation, and have made the playoffs 6 years in a row, including two World Series appearances and a title. They missed the playoffs for the first time in 6 straight seasons last year, because they were overall bad on defense. This is the sole reason why Dexter Fowler went from the Chicago Cubs to the St. Louis Cardinals. He's got a good bat, and probably a top 5 center fielder. St. Louis is starving for a good defense and they're trying to capitalize on it, because their bats couldn't get them to the playoffs. The Cardinals paid him for his stellar play at center field. That's fine. Just understand that their judgment might not be exactly what you think it is. Dude, the average fan does not even factor in here, I'm talking about the teams and all the people they employ and all the metrics they use which reflect a clear favoritism toward outstanding hitting. You think the guys getting paid to build rosters and scout prospects have time to care what the average fan is drawn to? Hell no, their bottom line is winning.
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Apr 18, 2017 17:43:30 GMT -5
It's also a fact that the average baseball fan is more drawn to the hitting aspect of the sport. Having a good batting lineup will put people in seats, resulting in more money. Take the Cardinals, for example. They have a good batting rotation, and have made the playoffs 6 years in a row, including two World Series appearances and a title. They missed the playoffs for the first time in 6 straight seasons last year, because they were overall bad on defense. This is the sole reason why Dexter Fowler went from the Chicago Cubs to the St. Louis Cardinals. He's got a good bat, and probably a top 5 center fielder. St. Louis is starving for a good defense and they're trying to capitalize on it, because their bats couldn't get them to the playoffs. The Cardinals paid him for his stellar play at center field. That's fine. Just understand that their judgment might not be exactly what you think it is. Dude, the average fan does not even factor in here, I'm talking about the teams and all the people they employ and all the metrics they use which reflect a clear favoritism toward outstanding hitting. You think the guys getting paid to build rosters and scout prospects have time to care what the average fan is drawn to? Hell no, their bottom line is winning. And I'm talking about specific examples of players getting money for their fielding. Looking at Fowler's 82.5 mil he got with the Cards, you'd think he was paid for his batting skills, when in reality he was plain out-bid for his defensive services. If the Cardinals were not so needy on defense, he would not have seen that much money. Not every contract is what you think it means. So many teams lose out on players in free agency because that player can fulfill a bigger need on defense for another team than their offense can.
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Post by Headhunter on Apr 18, 2017 17:48:03 GMT -5
Fowler's isn't one of the top 5 offensive outfielders or anything but he's still an above average hitter at CF.
If he couldn't hit, he wouldn't have made half the scratch he got from St. Louis. Yes, you make that move to help your defense but only if the guy can hit too.
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Post by Headhunter on Apr 18, 2017 17:50:13 GMT -5
Tell me this, Jason. If you have the best hitter in baseball who is also the worst fielder in baseball, and another guy who is the worst hitter in baseball but the best fielder in the game, who's more valuable?
I know the first guy would still get big money, the second guy would just be hopeful to have suitors in my estimation.
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Post by Jason on Apr 18, 2017 17:54:59 GMT -5
Fowler's isn't one of the top 5 offensive outfielders or anything If he couldn't hit, he wouldn't have made half the scratch he got from St. Louis. What about a top 5 defensive outfielder? And if he wasn't a good fielder, he wouldn't have even gotten an offer from St. Louis.
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Post by Headhunter on Apr 18, 2017 17:57:11 GMT -5
Fowler's isn't one of the top 5 offensive outfielders or anything If he couldn't hit, he wouldn't have made half the scratch he got from St. Louis. What about a top 5 defensive outfielder? And if he wasn't a good fielder, he wouldn't have even gotten an offer from St. Louis. But he still would have gotten decent money somewhere. If he couldn't hit but was still as good of a fielder, he wouldn't get paid anywhere.
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Post by Jason on Apr 18, 2017 18:02:41 GMT -5
Tell me this, Jason. If you have the best hitter in baseball who is also the worst fielder in baseball, and another guy who is the worst hitter in baseball but the best fielder in the game, who's more valuable? I know the first guy would still get big money, the second guy would just be hopeful to have suitors in my estimation. Depends on the position and how great or terrible we're talking here. If the great hitter is a terrible 1st baseman, then the hitter is more valuable. If the terrible hitter is a great 3rd baseman, then the 3rd baseman is more valuable. It also depends which league he is in. American League allows for a DH, the National League does not. The AL would aim for that 40% hitter, the NL would push him away.
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Post by Headhunter on Apr 18, 2017 18:06:24 GMT -5
Tell me this, Jason. If you have the best hitter in baseball who is also the worst fielder in baseball, and another guy who is the worst hitter in baseball but the best fielder in the game, who's more valuable? I know the first guy would still get big money, the second guy would just be hopeful to have suitors in my estimation. Depends on the position and how great or terrible we're talking here. If the great hitter is a terrible 1st baseman, then the hitter is more valuable. If the terrible hitter is a great 3rd baseman, then the 3rd baseman is more valuable. It also depends which league he is in. American League allows for a DH, the National League does not. The AL would aim for that 40% hitter, the NL would push him away. Center Field with the parameters I outlined. But no matter where you play, hitting is always still the most valuable aspect of your game, just the percentage varies. So the answer is always, the hitter is a better asset.
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Post by Jason on Apr 18, 2017 18:15:20 GMT -5
Depends on the position and how great or terrible we're talking here. If the great hitter is a terrible 1st baseman, then the hitter is more valuable. If the terrible hitter is a great 3rd baseman, then the 3rd baseman is more valuable. It also depends which league he is in. American League allows for a DH, the National League does not. The AL would aim for that 40% hitter, the NL would push him away. Center Field with the parameters I outlined. But no matter where you play, hitting is always still the most valuable aspect of your game, just the percentage varies. So the answer is always, the hitter is a better asset. If you get a hit only 35% of the time you ever came to bat in your career, that is considered all-time great status. What if a 3rd baseman could've made a stop on the ball, but only does so 35% of the time?
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Post by Headhunter on Apr 18, 2017 18:26:18 GMT -5
Center Field with the parameters I outlined. But no matter where you play, hitting is always still the most valuable aspect of your game, just the percentage varies. So the answer is always, the hitter is a better asset. If you get a hit only 35% of the time you ever came to bat in your career, that is considered all-time great status. What if a 3rd baseman could've made a stop on the ball, but only does so 35% of the time? One of those is something that can happen and has happened, the other scenario has never and will never happen, so why the comparison? When you have to resort to a scenario where your fielder is so bad he can't run without tripping over his feet, what's the point?
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Post by Jason on Apr 18, 2017 18:31:27 GMT -5
If you get a hit only 35% of the time you ever came to bat in your career, that is considered all-time great status. What if a 3rd baseman could've made a stop on the ball, but only does so 35% of the time? One of those is something that can happen and has happened, the other scenario has never and will never happen, so why the comparison? When you have to resort to a scenario where your fielder is so bad he can't run without tripping over his feet, what's the point? Because that is exactly how important defense is. A poor 3rd baseman is the difference between a .150 hitter and a .500 hitter. It is of equal importance to the batting aspect.
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Post by Headhunter on Apr 18, 2017 18:35:22 GMT -5
One of those is something that can happen and has happened, the other scenario has never and will never happen, so why the comparison? When you have to resort to a scenario where your fielder is so bad he can't run without tripping over his feet, what's the point? Because that is exactly how important defense is. A poor 3rd baseman is the difference between a .150 hitter and a .500 hitter. It is of equal importance to the batting aspect. No. A 3rd basemen being on the field makes that difference, even a poor one makes 80+% of possible plays. The range between great hitting and poor hitting is so much larger than great defense and bad defense. If you can't hit, you kill your team every time. Nobody fucks up defensively at anywhere near the level you propose.
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Post by Jason on Apr 18, 2017 18:39:50 GMT -5
Because that is exactly how important defense is. A poor 3rd baseman is the difference between a .150 hitter and a .500 hitter. It is of equal importance to the batting aspect. No. A 3rd basemen being on the field makes that difference, even a poor one makes 80+% of possible plays. The range between great hitting and poor hitting is so much larger than great defense and bad defense. If you can't hit, you kill your team every time. Nobody fucks up defensively at anywhere near the level you propose. That's not true. The 2016 Cardinals were loaded with good hitters, and they missed the playoffs because they had one of the worst defenses in the NL. The Rockies have had stellar bats for years and have failed to make the playoffs because their bullpen is one of the worst in the league. It's a two way street.
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Post by Headhunter on Apr 18, 2017 18:50:08 GMT -5
No. A 3rd basemen being on the field makes that difference, even a poor one makes 80+% of possible plays. The range between great hitting and poor hitting is so much larger than great defense and bad defense. If you can't hit, you kill your team every time. Nobody fucks up defensively at anywhere near the level you propose. That's not true. The 2016 Cardinals were loaded with good hitters, and they missed the playoffs because they had one of the worst defenses in the NL. The Rockies have had stellar bats for years and have failed to make the playoffs because their bullpen is one of the worst in the league. It's a two way street. The only thing here that isn't true is the idea that the presence of a bad third baseman = .500 hitters. That's utter nonsense and extreme hyperbole. You lose track of the bigger picture in the obsession with nuance here. Fielding is like special teams.
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Post by Jason on Apr 18, 2017 21:51:57 GMT -5
Fielding is like special teams. wat
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Post by Headhunter on Apr 18, 2017 22:06:23 GMT -5
Fielding is like special teams. wat It's the third phase of the game, and hitting and pitching are both far more critical to team building.
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Post by Headhunter on Apr 18, 2017 22:09:22 GMT -5
In both cases, 90% of the time you do the job asked of you, no thought to it. Fair catches/pop flies, kickoffs/groundouts. That 10% of the time someone fucks up, it can result in game-changing plays. But it's still not as valuable as the other two phases.
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Post by Jason on Apr 18, 2017 22:21:49 GMT -5
It's the third phase of the game, and hitting and pitching are both far more critical to team building. Pitching is defense, dingus.
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